“Everything really starts with the customer. It’s not just about having a technology, but understanding the problem you’re solving.”
-George LaRoque
Summary:
In this episode, George LaRocque, a leading HR technology analyst, investor and the founder of Work Tech- the #1 source of truth around investment and growth in the HR Tech market, joins me to discuss the evolving landscape of HR technology with a twist on its psychological impact on employees and job candidates. We discuss important topics that will define the future of HR tech and ultimately the future of work from the perspective of technology, commerce, and psychology.
These topics include:
- Impact of investments on HR tech innovation
- Impact of generative ai and automation on work dynamics
- The influence of technology on the employee experience
- Social and psychological implications of remote work technologies
- Adaptation and learning in a tech-driven workplace
- Ethical considerations and employee trust
Practical Takeaways:
- Understanding Market Needs: George underscores the importance of aligning technology with actual market needs, emphasizing that successful tech solutions stem from a deep understanding of customer pain points, not just technology’s capabilities. He stresses the psychological benefit of technologies that are developed with user-centric designs, which enhance user satisfaction and reduce resistance to new systems.
- Impact of Investment Trends on Psychological Well-being: By monitoring where capital is flowing within the HR tech sector, businesses can anticipate and adapt to emerging trends. George’s analysis suggests that investments not only indicate which technologies will shape the future of HR but also how these technologies can affect employee well-being. Investments in user-friendly and ethically designed technologies can improve the overall workplace environment by reducing stress and increasing job satisfaction.
- Adoption of Generative AI: As AI continues to integrate into HR processes, George advises companies to consider how these tools can enhance operations without replacing the human element. Proper implementation of AI can help reduce employee workload and prevent burnout, but it’s crucial to ensure these implementations are ethical and enhance employee experiences rather than making them feel replaceable or surveilled.
- Strategic Use of HR Technology for Employee Engagement: The conversation highlights the strategic advantage of using HR technology not just for automation, but for enhancing employee engagement and operational efficiency. Technologies that facilitate meaningful interactions and provide support in workflow can significantly improve psychological comfort and productivity among employees.
- Future of HR Tech and Psychological Impacts: Looking ahead, George predicts a shift towards fewer interfaces and more integrated, seamless experiences within HR technology. This evolution is expected to support a less cluttered and more efficient work environment, reducing cognitive load and fostering a more engaging and less stressful work experience. This future of “invisible” technology aids in maintaining a focus on human-centric operations, crucial for mental well-being.
Full transcript
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Speaker 0: Hello, George. Welcome to the show today. How are you doing? Speaker 1: I’m good, Charles. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 0: Yeah. No worries at all. We’ve talked a lot of times over the years, but it’s gonna be really great today. To get your perspective on all the you know, there’s not much happening these days, and our field’s kinda boring. So we’ll we’ll make some small talk, we’ll figure out something to talk about.
Right?
Speaker 1: We’ll figure it out.
Speaker 0: Uh-huh. Not not. I wanna ask you, though, first, so Does it ever happen that you people ask or get get you confused somehow with the hockey player George Larocque even though your name’s not spelled saying, like, has that happened to you a lot?
Speaker 1: It used to happen a lot. When I lived in the Boston area and that was a while ago, that was I think when either his career was more recent or happening. And I guess he was I’m not a huge hockey guy, but he was in in in Enforcer is what they call them. Right?
Speaker 0: The enforcer. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
You don’t look much like him. I’ll just say that, you know. But
Speaker 1: I can’t skate. I mean, I can, but not not like he can. I’m sure.
Speaker 0: Yeah. I love to play hockey, but I I played when I was a kid and then that That was it. We don’t have any ice rinks in New Orleans. I wanted to get my kid, you know, into play in hockey. It’s not a single ice cream.
I guess it’s not a surprise, but figured we might have one somewhere, but
Speaker 1: Yeah. We we we moved up to New Hampshire when I was a boy. I was probably ten years old and all everybody was, like, into hockey and skating and, like, really good. So it I never real you know, it was always one of those things I just couldn’t really do. I did learn to skate and everything, but Hockey just never became my thing because everybody was so far advanced
Speaker 0: Yeah.
Speaker 1: That it was just I focused on other things.
Speaker 0: Yeah. Well, there’s lots of focus on. I I had the opposite. My mom’s from Michigan. She skated a lot.
So she had me in figure skating lessons when I was probably could barely stand up. So it’s a pretty natural thing for me to go into, but then it it’s in in Tennessee, you can’t go too far with it, really. So anyway, It’s lots of fun. So you got a lot going on in your career, you know, and looking over, done a lot of stuff more than I even knew. So I’d love for you as to kind of frame up what we’re doing and and help everybody understand where you’re coming from. Tell us a little bit about your, you know, your career journey. How’d you get to where you’re sitting right now.
Speaker 1: I’ve been really fortunate in the sense that I, you know, I got into staffing and that was at and I worked for someone who really invest it a lot of time in in training and in really development from in in recruitment as a as a profession and a career. Which might not sound all that unusual, but
Speaker 0: Okay.
Speaker 1: You know, I I I didn’t enter the staffing world and sort of sales y body shop kinda kind of Right. Environment, which really helped me. I spent about ten years ten or eleven years on the staffing side of the world progressed to where I had broken out on my own with a couple of partners and we had created what would now be called a small RPO recruitment process outsourcing firm. We had about fifty five people, and this was in the nineties, mid nineties when the web was just coming, you know, blossoming. Right.
So we were taking employers onto the web. We were get you know, we had we were in the Boston area, so we had they were just called Internet startups back then.
Speaker 0: Right. Right.
Speaker 1: Ecommerce type shops and data communications, and we would take over their hiring internally. And so another fortunate thing to be in recruitment and what ended up being employer branding at a time when we’re moving to this new this new world of of the web. From there, I moved to the tech side. Based on all of that experience, we had been partnering with a small shop that had a database and did a lot of resume scanning. They had been acquired and they asked me to come on board and help them go to market.
And that is the company that became brass ring. It was called Hire Systems at the time. So I was, like, employee number ten or so there. That was my move to the tech side. So this is now, you know, from the late nineties into the early two thousands.
Now we’re going from just, you know, sort of static experiences on the web to SaaS. Speaker 0: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So moving, you know, big global companies, their HR systems, recruitment systems onto the web, spent about a dozen twelve, thirteen years in that world, go to market, strategy, general management. That’s where, you know, over those years, spent a lot of time in the whole talent management space got to go pretty deep in the from a business perspective in the assessment space. We were trying to bring quality of hire into recruitment. And so I had a lot of experience there. And then from there, moved into what has now over the last thirteen years, this business has evolved starting as a consultant working with vendors, with their go to market, and their strategy.
I was at a at a point where I I needed some flexibility for some you know, family things that were going on. So started working in that way with vendors. And then I never went back. I always thought I would go back, and I never did because it just one customer led to another. I started doing research and putting insights and writing about all of the trends I was seeing and started to and it evolved into this analyst and adviser space.
So that’s like the quick thumbnail sketch.
Speaker 0: Yeah. That’s a lot. And you know that kinda led me to what I what I wanna hopefully thematically focus on today, which is kind of the nexus between the investment and the tech side and the the excitement there. And, you know, what’s going on on the ground? How people are actually using these tools.
You got a good perspective on both. And, you know, you’ve been somebody who’s always been a good source and even I wouldn’t say benchmark necessarily, but in my own analyst work and kind of tracking spaces. And we’ve talked a little bit about, you know, access to our our brains through our databases and things like that, you know. Mhmm. Pretty interesting stuff. And I know you’re doing a lot. So one of the things I really excites me is to learn from you directly, you know, what you’re seeing kind of in the investment side of things. But let’s build up to that Okay. You know, a little bit. But I do want to sweep as we’re kind of moving forward here. Tell tell me in our listener something, what have you read or consumed recently that you know, really resonated with you that kinda help help form your worldview or contribute to or change your worldview, you know, what’s had an impact on you lately?
Speaker 1: That’s such a good question. And I feel like since, you know, since the you know, I sort of put a time stamp around, you know, where the pandemic hit.
Speaker 0: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And from that point forward, it’s like, what hasn’t impacted
Speaker 0: I know. Right?
Speaker 1: So, you know, and it’s not just about the pandemic, but that was where, you know, the world was already different. We were, you know, things in the US here are very polarized. Mhmm. A lot of seeing a lot of things for the first time, a lot of, you know, societal unrest, a lot of issues, you know, and Yeah. And then the pandemic hit and things just went completely upside down and, you know, and it it it goes from there.
I mean, you know, looking at what’s happening with social media. And I’ve read a lot about the impact neurologically with social media and the impact on because I I have three kids that were at home through the pandemic. You know, seeing how each of each of them adapted differently from almost arriving in, you know, remote learning to hating it and, you know, sort of the whole spectrum there. But at the same time watching social media creep in and gosh, I feel like there’s
so much that I’ve like, there’s been so much coming at all of us, but coming at me for a while now that it’s just been from so many levels, realizing what’s you know, right in the world, what’s wrong in the world, what’s hurting us, you know, gosh. I don’t know.
I don’t know if that’s a good answer for you, Charles, but
Speaker 0: I mean, look, it is your answer. It is yours. And I I think it resonates with me. So I think when you say that everybody’s got a story. Everybody can put their selves in that moment in in time when you refer, you know, to the pandemic.
It’s almost it’s such a big divider. You know, I’m here in New Orleans. We had hurricane Katrina back in two thousand five, and that’s another life divider for me. Right? So Yeah. Everybody here kinda defines And then the pandemic is is another one that obviously impacted all of us. I have a well, my kid is he’s now ten, but he was just in kindergarten during the pandemic. So and he’s in French immersion. So, you know, trying to sit there and keep him on task. I couldn’t really understand.
I know a little French, but it was just I found myself wanting to be a six year old and goof off with him more than I because I didn’t wanna pay attention. So it was really it was an interesting experience for sure and the just no matter what, the constant bombardment of of information and stimuli now. It’s it’s overwhelming. Right? And so I feel like we’re learning a lot of new stuff and we’re exposed to a lot, but I don’t know what the capacity is to actually absorb it, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I hear it.
Speaker 0: Yeah. So you feel, you know, if we think about just people that are working in, basically, I would say, the people department and HR, what what have you, whatever slice there is. There’s a lot of them. But, you know, have you you feel like you got a good pulse really on what’s going on you know, in the trenches there, in the in the world of folks. I mean, I have my own opinions as well.
But what what are you what are your thoughts, you know? What what’s going on right now?
Speaker 1: Well, I think I I I think I do. I think I have a good whole set. I work hard to, you know, to keep an eye on that. Yeah. I think the first thing I would say is that, like, everything in the world right now, not everybody is is is experiencing things the same in the same way. So when you talk about the people department
Speaker 0: Right. Right.
Speaker 1: What what size company, but then, you know, what industry, what particular role, and that when I get on a call or a Zoom with someone, regardless of their role. Each call, I want you know, it’s like everybody’s hair’s on fire right now. Yeah. But I like, why is is is that is different on you know, some it’s they’re they’re freaking out because, you know, things are are tough and they’re having to go, you know, consider layoffs and they’re being pushed to cut costs. Others, their hair’s on fire because it’s like things are crazy and they can’t keep up.
Speaker 0: Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, where that starts to where those lines start to get drawn in the world of recruitment, for example, right now if you’re in a frontline, high volume world. You may be pushed to cut some costs, but you’re hiring just as much and all and the challenges are just amplified. If you are in big tech, it’s a scary time right now. If you’re in tech in the financial world, you’re uneasy, but you’re you’re not feeling it like the folks in Silicon Valley. If you’re in healthcare, that’s been, you know, fairly well protected.
There’s some nurse, you know, some folks that I talked to where they’ve they’ve had some some impact in their nursing ranks.
Speaker 0: Mhmm.
Speaker 1: But it’s generally more more safe if you will. So I think the way I sum it up is my line has been whether you’re growing or slowing, you’re being asked to do more with less right now. So if it could be economically driven, could be based on the numbers in your business, but it could also be the the world woke up to this new reality of you know, automation and artificial intelligence. And probably, you know, outside of some cool tech features when ChatGPT launched,
Speaker 0: one
Speaker 1: of the biggest impacts was every business leader wondering, well, how can we leverage this? Kind of Yeah. Open their minds up to and that’s where you might be growing and still looking at becoming more efficient, cutting costs, etcetera.
Speaker 0: So, yeah, when you as soon as you said, do more with less, the immediate thing I said was, you know, a thought in my head. I’m saying now was, hello, chat, or, you know, large language models or whatever, Azure is making all of us more efficient in ways. And that’s a whole another thing, I’m sure we’ll have many chances to talk about it. I always say I’m not gonna talk about it at all on any of these things and that’s ends up being all that we talk about. It’s like look.
I mean, this is to me, you know, we’ve been through a lot of hype cycles. There’s reality to some of those. Right? I mean, you know, web three, blockchain, VR, whatever, you know, multi verse. Those are all valuable things.
They’re contributing in in good ways. But, man, they’re to me, they’re just they come and go. Right? I mean, you who’s talking about the metaverse really these days. But we’re all talking about probably the most significant thing that I’ve ever, you know, come about. And and, yeah, I talk to a lot of people that have my background in big organizations about, you know, how they’re used, you know, what what house generative AI kind of filtering into what they’re doing. And from my world, it’s a lot of, well, we know this is awesome. We kind of are in a wait and see mode. We kind of need to understand this and how it can apply and how we can be safe with it, you know. And I’ve got a really interesting you know, the juxtaposition I have in in my mind is we consumers, as a consumer, we can we can use chat, GTP, or, you know, bar, whatever, one you wanna use.
You can use that anytime we want for pretty much anything we want. But once we get in the walls of a company, you know, we don’t have that opportunity. So there’s a little bit of a, hey, we know this can help us, but you know, we may not be able to access it all, or we’re doing it kinda on the sly, you know, for in a more personalized way. I read an article the other day And I’ve read multiple articles about this, about how the job interview process, specifically for developers, you know, and tech companies, has gone from, you know, a will come polish of toenails and, you know, cucumbers on your eyes just as a job applicant to okay, you know, spend six weeks creating this, you know, build a map for us and then give it to us and then, you know, present fifteen times. So it’s become it’s become brutal for these folks.
And and, you know, for me, I I visualize it as ping pong kind of almost sometimes candidates
seem to have leverage and developers. Sometimes the companies have leverage. It seems to go back and forth. But have you actually seen, experienced, any of this kinda like brutal developer job interviewing? Is it something that you’ve a phenomenon that you’re aware of too?
Speaker 1: I I I can’t I can say that I’m seeing a lot more you know, as a as a high level trend, the the presentation stuff, the this I I can’t stand the work free things, like develop developing something. Even even on the presentation side of things, you know, they view it as a test. I I really don’t I don’t like it. I’m I’m aware of it as trend. I haven’t really gone I haven’t seen it close up on the on the developer front, but it doesn’t surprise me at all.
Certain types of employers or individuals think they have leverage, they’re gonna take advantage of that.
Speaker 0: Feels like revenge sometimes. In some way. I don’t know. That’s probably wrong. I mean, we’d like to think that employers are very hubanistic and you know, most of the ones I work with are, right, and you probably too see read these stories about, you know, crazy stuff going on.
I’m like, I’ve never really actually seen that firsthand, but it you know, it must be real. There’s millions of people, so they odds are that some things are gonna be wackier than others, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well Yeah.
Speaker 0: A big differentiator for you probably the biggest is right now is just how you’re following the investment side of things. Right? And you do tell our listeners a little bit about the work that you do in that area more specifically. What are you doing? Because you got you’re on top of a lot of data.
You process it really well. And you share it in a great way. So talk about that.
Speaker 1: Thank thank you for that. I Yeah. It it might be interesting to you how how I started doing that, how I, you know, started getting known for it. So I so it was a little over seven years ago, and I’ve always paid attention to it because it’s it’s, you know, where is the capital flowing? What’s the new technology that’s emerging?
Where is the that cut that kind of innovation. Where’s that happening? And then but about seven years ago, things really started started to heat up just a little bit in the HR tech. Space. Mhmm. So we started to see the traditional sources like CB Insights and Crunchbase start to write about HR Tech. There was actually it was about nine years ago. There was a big article, you know, I can remember in the New York Times with a big headline about how much money had just gone into HR Tech. And in all of those examples, I would read these things and say, you know, my reaction would be pretty sure I saw a lot more going to HR tech than what what they’re aware
Speaker 0: of. Mhmm.
Speaker 1: So about seven to eight years ago, I started tracking it. The next thing came out from one of those sources and I was right. I I my number was very different than their number. And so at that point, I started I started tracking it. I started writing about it.
Now what’s happened over time is I’ve got technology that’s helping me track it and But the key isn’t just having the data. You can go get there there are tools that are tracking those
announcements Mhmm. But the the issue is our market is nuanced and, you know, the sort of what our solutions do and compare niche in comparison to sales and marketing or fintech or whatever.
Speaker 0: Right.
Speaker 1: So the the data’s all out there, but these other, you know, properties, they they don’t know how to categorize it. So we’re now categorizing into about sixty different subcategories. So there’s, like, you know, HCM and then a bunch of subcategories, talent acquisition, talent management, etcetera. Now that the the we’ve got a a big, you know, a long span of data. We can see trends and we can see which investors are active and we can see who’s raised, what, when
Speaker 0: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Get some pretty interesting perspective on the market. Yeah. We every quarter, we publish a it’s a free analysis of, you know, what’s happened in the space. And of course, we roll it up every year and do a annual comparison as well. Yeah.
And as the market’s been difficult for the last couple of years, it’s been really interesting to be able to compare and contrast the more broad global market for investment and what’s happening in our space.
Speaker 0: Yeah. That is an interesting because, you know, So I’ve done not exactly like that. I’ve tracked the assessment space much more narrowly and I did crunch some numbers like right after the pandemic, you know, and I don’t I don’t know exactly how if I had the same accuracy of sources that that you do, but, you know, came up with some market estimates and everything. That was very interesting. So I could see how much work that probably is just because my my little world it was it was quite a bit and then keeping up with it can be can be a lot. But most of that investment data, that’s publicly available. Like, when I go on Crunchbase to to look at something or any of these other sites, you know, Zoom info, whatever. You could see, right, if it’s a publicly certified whatever, you know, SEC type thing, then you know who got one investment from who. Right? I mean, that that helps you be able to to figure that out. So what what is the trend right now? What’s going on? So I I I hear a lot of, oh, man, it’s so hard to raise money now, you know, comparatively to when money was just flowing everywhere. I would say there’s always gonna be exceptions or whatever. But, you know, you hear people speaking in broad generalities.
When I have an expert like you here, you know, let let’s actually see what what the reality is.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It’s an interesting conversation because it it is hard. It’s also, you know, when you zoom out and really get some perspective, it’s it’s not it’s not quite as bad as the the headlines might suggest.
Speaker 0: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I’ll give you some numbers. So, you know, in twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two, or at least the first half of twenty twenty two. Those were for everyone in every market, those were the anomalies. Right? They were off the charts.
So twenty twenty one for global HR tech was about eighteen billion flowed into the market. Right? The biggest year previous. Was about five billion.
Speaker 0: Wow. Okay.
Speaker 1: So and we had been on some very consistent sort of upward upward trending years since that twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen time frame. So it was sort of growing and, you know, I remember, like, Wow. We did two billion. Oh my god. And then we did, you know, four and then we did five.
And we had that that that eighteen and it was crazy. Twenty twenty two, the first half was really strong. Yeah. Now, at that time, the rest of the world, if you were looking at the headlines in q two of twenty twenty two, everybody else was already calling it done. And we were still on the uptick.
But at the end of q two, we we started to trail off. But the whole year ended up being a thirteen billion dollar year. So the first half of the year carried the rest. The second half of the year was at like a seven or eight billion dollar clip. So it was still you know, or run rate, I should say. So that that was interesting to me. And I started to call out the differences at at that time. Now twenty twenty three, which we’ve been looking at now for a while, we’re back it was five billion. Now there’s a hangover from the twenty one and thirteen billion Right. To the five.
Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And so many so many startups entered the space and raised and it wasn’t just that they raised at that time, which then they were set up you know, when the market turned for tough times, it was that the value of the company, the the valuation they were given was so high because everybody was just growth at all costs and the mindset was, you know, you’ll you’ll get to a point, we’ll you’ll raise more money. We’ll just keep growing this thing.
Speaker 0: Yep.
Speaker 1: And so then the market turned and companies weren’t willing to reinvest at that high valuation. So companies either have been treading water or going out of business or or extending their previous rounds and having a hard time raising. Now at the same time, other early really early stage companies have been able to raise money. And you but the model’s different now. Right?
The Yes. So back in if you raised in twenty nineteen or twenty twenty, you were scaling your resources, you’re hiring people, etcetera, way ahead of where your business was. But that was the mindset. Now, I see a lot of startups that are three or four people. It’s the founders, a couple of co founders, and contractors coming in to help and they’re and we’re back to basics. We’re back to revenue and a path to profitability So it’s it’s so, yes, it’s tough out there. It’s way tougher than it was in twenty twenty, twenty twenty one. Or early twenty twenty two. It’s it’s hard. That pain is real.
A lot of people in startups have had to they had to shut their doors because of you know, the the, you know, they they entered the market in a in a world looked a certain way and then it looked completely different and they had burned all their cash. Yeah. So, yeah, it’s it’s really tough, but it’s it’s not I think we’re we’re normalizing. And I spoke to the head of the ADP Ventures fund, and he had a great term for it. I’ll give him credit for it.
Oskon. He said he can’t wait for you know, right now we’re heading back to where people are deploying capital again. They’re starting to invest. And we’ve got this more more realistic view of what these how these companies need to operate. And some of the growth mindsets come. We can’t wait for these things to all harmonize. Right? That was a great way
Speaker 0: to Yeah.
Speaker 1: A great way to, you know, sort of level out in the market.
Speaker 0: Yeah. Look at it in a macro sense. It seems like maybe it was a little bit of an aberration, you know, those three years. And the pandemic was in there who knows how that influence things as well. But it it is true that the like try to if if I wouldn’t say empty calories, maybe is the wrong way to say it, but just the idea that growth over EBITDA or whatever, you’re just going, going, going, and somebody’s gotta pay at some point for most companies, you know. So what are the so in today’s world right now, what are you seeing? I mean, this is probably, like, softball here. I think I know the answer. But where are you seeing the most action, the most interest? Who who is really seeming to be the I guess who, that’s not naming names, but just segment wise.
You know, what is the momentum? People who are doing x seem to be getting a lot of attention, you know.
Speaker 1: Yep. So thinking about the the products and how the categories and how they align to HR. So on the core HR side, there’s still a lot of interest around any pay related technology. So it could be global pay, it could be pay equity, it could be data that is supporting all of these things on the I’ll just name, you know, one or two categories in each on the talent management side. So thinking about everything sort of post hire from a talent perspective, there is an there’s a huge appetite for internal mobility and skills and, you know, and not not all skills with a capital s, all types of skills, how to how to identify skills, how to see where they are in an organization, and how to balance resources across the organization.
Big lot of interest there. And and those applications can all that that are addressing that can all look different from a marketplace to a data play. Totally. On the talent acquisition side, the what used to be hot were, like, sort of anything that was a source. Right?
Anything that could give me a source of new data.
Speaker 0: Right.
Speaker 1: That’s that’s slowed down a little bit because, you know, we don’t need it’s not as hard to fill the top of the funnel right now in the employment market. But anything that is high volume, frontline, so it could be and and it’s I don’t you I don’t like we used to say, like, blue collar. That’s not that’s not how I think about it. It’s anybody that you know, dealing with customers, it could be Yeah. It could be in the financial market, it could be someone’s in in a call center dealing with service, or it could be in a retail environment or a restaurant or a hospital or whatever.
In those areas, there is a real appreciation for the direct line from talent to revenue and Yeah. Talent to productivity. So in a manufacturing environment, you know, if I have to shut down a production line, that’s top line revenue. I don’t get to ship product. Right? If I don’t have the people there. So they there any any tools that are helping in that environment
are are are attracting a lot of attention. And I would say the I didn’t say AI but you could imply AI across Like, you’ve gotta have an AI story Right. Across all of those. But the the real thing you you’ve gotta start with the problem that you’re solving And then, you know, how do we leverage automation AI to to do it?
Speaker 0: Man. Amen. AI is not a solution in itself. I I council a lot a lot of times on that. Well, you know, the internal talent mobility as somebody referred to it the other day as ITM. That was the first time I’d heard that little thing. But yeah. And that’s all skills. Right? And and that, to me, if you’d asked me the same question, although I don’t have as broad of you because I’m more in the talent acquisition side of things, skills are it.
You know, I wish people I I wish it wasn’t such a giant word that lacked more specificity. I think people throw it around with with It could mean a lot of different things. To me, it means things that people have that are that can create value for a company. Right? And so it could be a lot of different things.
We know we could look at those a lot. So do you have a head scratcher or something something you’ve seen in the last you know, a little while maybe this last year, twenty twenty three, something where you’re like, what? Why did that happen? This doesn’t make sense. In terms of any kind of investment stuff or deal stuff, anything like that?
Speaker 1: You know, I I would say, you know, There’s so many head scratches.
Speaker 0: Yeah. I know. Right? You have a non head scratches. How many times? We’ll flip it around.
Speaker 1: Well, I’ll tell you one one one really good one. First off, in in our market, there’s a real there there’s still surprisingly so much gender inequity with the founders. So
Speaker 0: Right.
Speaker 1: It’s when I look again, it’s another area where when I look broadly, where our market, you know, I I meet with a lot of women that are founders.
Speaker 0: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it’s better than other areas, but it doesn’t really reflect our world that we’re in in this HR world. Right. So that that’s all I’m always scratching my head on that and then there that’s a that’s a big conversation
Speaker 0: Right.
Speaker 1: That goes beyond our our space. Another area that I have been really disappointed about Yep. Has been diversity, equity, and inclusion. Mhmm. I’ve I do an quarterly webinars on investment and I’ve so many times.
I’ve said, you know, look at this small amount that came showed up on the top fifteen, you know, but I’m really hopeful that we’ll see more investment there. And I think Right. You know, part of the challenge is it’s a systemic problem and you’ve gotta solve it across all your systems. It’s not
it’s hard to have a point solution on that. But and I and I in the world of Worktech, it’s an embedded Exactly.
Speaker 0: You know, bring it in your product. It’s part of what you’re trying to accomplish with the the end goal of of whatever you’re doing. You wanna infuse it.
Speaker 1: Right. But I’m but I’m I’m I’m still you know, I’ve been disappointed that I haven’t seen more explicit messaging or positioning around that. And then then in this environment, it’s actually, you know, I’ve had the founders that I do know in that space have had to start messaging differently about their products because it’s become so politicized that you know, it’s they’ve gotta sort of stay away from the hot the the hot buttons out there. So anyhow, the triggers, I guess. So If you look at the world of global payroll, so outside of the in the US, we have professional employment organizations, PEOs.
If you’re paying globally, it’s an employer of record. So Right. It’s based it’s a similar kind of model where these companies are sort of co employing but they’re they’re establishing the ability to pay within a geographic region globally versus around the US Sure. And we’ve had some, like, deal that that have done really, really well. Mhmm.
And then some that, like, And papaya Global has done really, really well. Any companies like Atlas is one that I know a lot of folks are concerned about right now And so I I I look at when I look at that and I see, like, this one or two companies that are off to the side not performing as well as others. In a in a in a space that’s been really hot.
Speaker 0: Right.
Speaker 1: You know, I don’t know if it’s an execution thing. I don’t know if they gotta ahead of their they raised too much too fast and and missed I missed the timing on the market. But it’s a there’s I’ve been, you know, very curious about that, about that. But yeah. So, I don’t know, there’s a few for you.
Speaker 0: Yeah. Cool. Thanks. So, something that I feel like you’re a good person to answer a question that I’ve asked myself a lot. I’ve never really asked anybody else. That I can remember. But if you think about innovation in the market and what people are buying, Is it is it that, you know, vendors companies build amazing tools that people want to adopt And and that’s how, you know, things kind of move forward evolve? Or is it that people are looking for tools and, you know, there’s there’s folks out there commercially, you say, oh, well, there’s gotta be a big market for this. We hear people are looking for this. Is that even a is that even a good way to look at it.
In other words, you know, what what’s the engine driving it is people putting product out, oh, these products are great. We’re gonna buy them in the company crows or is it the other way around, like, oh, we, you know, we we need this.
Speaker 1: I think the everything really starts with the customer. So the the the answer is truly that there there’s a there’s a need. It it may not be that the customer, the HR leader, the head of talent acquisition, has clearly defined the product that’s going to solve, fit and and solve their problem. But there’s a need. There and that that’s where it all starts.
Speaker 0: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Let me let me flip it another way. One of the biggest mistakes founders make is they develop a product in a lab, in their basement, in their garage, and wherever, without ever talking to customers. And they don’t really understand the problem that they’re solving. They’ve got an amazing interface, amazing technology, incredible engineers, Wizz Bang stuff going on
Speaker 0: Right.
Speaker 1: And nobody needs it. Yeah. It all has to be driven by a need and a demand. Now, the exceptions, although I would I would argue they still come back to the customer needs. So you could say, what about all this AI stuff?
Well, we’re still figuring out where that’s going to have the most impact. In some areas, there’s low hanging fruit like but they’re features. It’s like, Well, it can help you write a great message to an employee or a candidate. Right. And pretty soon, every app you open up is gonna Absolutely.
Speaker 0: It already is getting closed. Right? You know?
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. But but where can we leverage this technology to really address or or the skills issue or to support freelancers or whatever whatever the issue is, that’s still taking shape. Yeah. And it will be driven by the customers because the whole thing exists to, you know, these are businesses and with the tech companies there to make money and you’re there on the HR side, they’re they’re helping run a business that hopefully makes money and keeps people employed.
Speaker 0: Yeah. It needs to be symbiotic. You know, I think in in my mind as you’re talking to kinda I said, oh, yeah. The answer is probably pretty obvious, Charles. You should’ve thought of that.
But it’s like, if you think about it in my world and probably because I’ve had the most experience. Some of the best stuff comes from, you know, oh, you’re you’re in there, you’re working with a client, you see what a need, they you may say, oh, I can go build this for you or, you know, I have this skill set. Let’s let’s create this together. Or even as you get in there, you know, how many times sure you’ve seen it more than me, you come up with one idea and you get start working with a customer who’s like, well, if it could really only do this, that would be great. You’re like, oh, well, you’re you know, we’re early on here.
We’re trying to find our way. You need this. Okay. Well, let’s apply ourselves to this. And then all of a sudden, you’ve solved this and think, well, they had this problem.
I bet a lot of other people have it too. Right? So it’s probably not a black or white thing. And I think collaboration is so great. Right?
And if you’re in business and you’re trying to start something, and you have somebody that you can help. Right? I mean, ultimately, to me, at least, it should be about helping someone achieve something, get get rid of pain, solve a problem, grow. And if you can be a partner in doing that with your product, you know, that’s a good thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Totally. And that’s, you know, that that collaborative relationship between the folks that are developing the technology and the folks that are assuming it, using it, applying it. I think that really reflects, you know, seven years ago when I was started tracking all this and talking about it. It’s almost in our space for some reason, it’s looked at, like, oh, that belongs over here on the side.
But in every other space, when you look at you look at big tech, you look at sales and marketing tech, fintech, it’s it’s one conversation. And I think that’s why because you you need to be following the innovation engaging with the innovators, and they’re not just at startups. They’re at, you know, the some big companies as well.
Speaker 0: For sure.
Speaker 1: And engaging in that in that conversation to shape the future and also open your mind up to what the possibilities are. I think that’s so I I like that that collaborative angle that you can take on it.
Speaker 0: I mean, I think in life in general, that’s a really good approach. So So, you know, a good segue as we kind of wind our way out of here today. It’s a really great conversation. The the commercial side of this stuff is just like, I’m so obsessed with it lately, you know. I don’t know what it may be the last, maybe five to ten years.
And I love when I get a chance to work with startups, it’s it’s so much fun. The energy is is great and, you know, it’s it’s it’s a unique thing. But, okay, we’re twenty, twenty four just in a couple months into it. So let’s round it out twenty thirty. Right?
Get out your crystal ball. You’ve you’ve seen a lot. I would I would qualify it with, you know, nobody saw the general AI stuff coming or anything. So, you know, if you you I used love to look at the popular science when I was a kid where it’d be like, here’s what was on our cover a hundred years ago. Right.
It was almost like
Speaker 1: this is
Speaker 0: some hits too. But yeah. What do you think? What what’s what’s gonna be happen if we’re sitting here six years from now talking about this the world of HR technology and how people are working in organizations with it.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it’s gonna sound like I’m contradicting myself. We’re going to have a lot more technology, but we’re going to have fewer interfaces. So
Speaker 0: multi modal, you know. Yeah. We’re gonna have agents, man. Agents are gonna do everything for us.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 0: So you’re gonna be interviewing your agent on a podcast. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Three So the one of the core you know, when when we defined Worktech, there’s there’s six core principles. And one of them, the way I sum it up is it’s, you know, designed without ego. So it’s not designed you you may you may have an interface for those who need it or you might just be a product that it’s a pure data play. It’s your your integrating data and then feeding back to the systems that where it’s needed. But if you if you think about, you know, the the your desktop or your phone or your mobile how many systems do you need to log into right now in order to to get something done?
And then thinking about can can the systems be working for me and and moving things along? So I I think it’s I think you’re right. I think that or that that the multimodal, the sort of agents, the invisible agents, you know, sort of, you know, and an an action triggers, an action, and a workflow that I I don’t need to be clicking on things. I just need the end result at the point in time and in the in in the system where where I need it. So Yeah.
So I think we’re we’re headed. That’s where that’s where we’re headed now. You know, will we be working with, like, humanoid robots and, you know, I don’t know. I I have I have no idea. But
Speaker 0: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But it’s it’s it’s crazy how fast that one of the big changes right now I saw fast things are changing. So that that you talked about the trends when it’s always been the case where think about any any trend that took over the market. It takes five to ten years before we really know how it’s gonna sit. This is happening so much faster now. And it’s it’s the the cost of the barrier of entry is almost nonexistent as far as creating something.
The then the technology itself is learning and adapting it just blows my mind to like, when you listen to these folks from open AI or whatever and it’s like, well, we don’t really know why the system does that
Speaker 0: Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1: But it it it’s, you know, it’s smart. It’s like that is that is
Speaker 0: smart and we’re in a lot of ways. Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s Yeah. Like the the existential philosophical stuff that underlies everything about being human in this world now is just it’s bonkers, you know? It it does feel a lot like sci fi.
I use chat g t p all the time and
Speaker 1: No, not to.
Speaker 0: No. I I I never cease to marvel at every time I do it. I’m like, okay, I gotta What do I do to balance these pool chemicals. Boom. There it goes.
The thing tells me exactly what to do, but it can do so many other things and you can you can like, get really complicated with it, you know, as well. And I just it’s I can’t see how it’s not gonna just blow the blow the whole thing up. I don’t know which way. I mean, I get flummox just even, you know, thinking about it. But it’s gonna find its way into this stuff. It it already is. And I don’t think it’s gonna be just because of the g wizbang gimmicky, you know, part of it. I have my own thoughts about the hiring world, but I think it’s going to help people do better at their jobs and companies be more productive. We know that, hopefully, it makes the work experience better for people. You know, just work.
Employers and employees, it’s got to be a symbiotic thing. For me being a psychologist, you know, I think about it that way. It’s like and we hope that, you know, These technologies can still help companies create value for their employees and vice versa. You know?
Speaker 1: Yeah. My dad used to he he’s he’s long retired, but he was electrician journeyman electrician. Uh-huh. And there was a a concept that he I watched him live, you know, you go where the work is.
Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. Totally.
Speaker 1: You know, he worked in New York City, went in building the Twin Towers, he worked in Montreal, he worked out West, you know, you went where the work was. That’s where we grew up as a young child in New Jersey and then later on in New England because that’s where the work was. Yeah. I asked percentage of it. So I think I think we need to start adopting some of that and looking at what is our work?
How is this technology impacting things? If I’m if I’m doing work that isn’t that doesn’t require a lot of creativity or thought or you know, sort of, I don’t wanna say strategic, but a lot of, you know, analysis and it and it’s not relationship driven or any of these things that then it can probably be automated. If it’s transactional, it can probably be automated And I probably need to start thinking about how can I leverage the skills that I do have to be in an environment where maybe you know, it’s the human interaction that’s important or maybe it’s the leveraging the tools to then, you know, provide the experience as an HR leader? Or that’s where you’re gonna get caught with bad timing when things start to, you know, how many interview schedulers are employed today versus, you know, fifteen years ago? You think about the the ranks of those folks in large TA environments.
Right. But, you know, that that happens slowly. And those folks were able to move into other roles.
Speaker 0: Right. Right.
Speaker 1: This is happening much faster, so I think they need to be aware.
Speaker 0: I know. I know. We all, like, I yeah. It’s it’s the a closing note here, you know, I I talk about it a lot. In my writings, we talk about it here.
You know, human skills, uniquely human skills are gonna become more and more important. And then I start thinking, well, at what point weren’t human skills important to the job, you know? I mean, if you don’t have them, you don’t have them. So I don’t know what how that all goes. So so tell everybody as we where where they can find you, where they can get in touch with your research and and you, and I know everybody says LinkedIn, but I think you have a little bit more going on than that.
Right? So work tech Yeah. Specifically about that and and where people can find you there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The website is one work tech dot com. However, you get the number one or spell it out, you’ll get to the same place. I’m also pretty active at events. I’ll be at transform this year and I’ll be out at HR Tech.
I also chair at HR Tech. They started a investor forum pre conference to HR tech. I chair that. I’m out. I’m out and about quite a bit.
And you can find me on LinkedIn, but Yeah. All the usual places. Yeah.
Speaker 0: Yeah. Good. Well, thank you so much for sharing some time with with me today, and I really appreciate your insights are are always great.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, Charles. This was fun and at any time.